Minnie and I

Minnie and I

Thursday, December 14, 2017

Clarabelle & Horace Through the Years 1972- Present (UPDATE)

1972-1973: Disney on Parade
The earliest appearance of Clarabelle Cow and Horace Horsecollar was in the 1972 edition of Disney on Parade. They both appear, with Goofy, in their "Orphan's Benefit" outfits. Claraballe appears with a pink face and Horace with a blue face. They both appear wearing five finger gloves.

Clarabelle and Horace on Disney on Parade, 1972

1974-1975: Fantasy on Parade
For this holiday parade, Clarabelle and Horace appeared in their black and white persona. Clarabelle wears a white and gray polka dot dress, with matching apron, a gray bow on her head and has white feet. Sometimes Clarabelle was spotted wearing normal black shoes. Horace has a big check to check grin and wears white overalls with a gray horse collar, black bowtie, white horse bit and gray bowler hat. They both have flesh color faces with black cartoon eyes and wear five fingered gloves. They only appeared on this parade.

Screenshot of Horace and Clarabelle in Fantasy on Parade, 1975. video

Screenshot of an unlisted video

Clarabelle wearing black shoes, credit

1992- 2017: Band Clarabelle and Horace
Clarabelle made her second park appearance in 1992 in "The World According to Goofy," a parade celebrating Goofy's 60th anniversary. She was portraying Cleopatra in the Egypt portion of the parade. After the parade's run, Claraballe appeared next to Daisy Duck in the Christmas parade until 1997. In the 1994-1997 Disney on Ice run of Snow White, Clarabelle Cow appeared as Goofy's love interest. It's uncertain what dress she was wearing on that show. In 1998, Clarabelle and Horace appeared ,along side (rare) Peter Pig, in Viva Magic!, Tokyo Disneyland's 15th anniversary castle show. They appeared for the first time their "Band Concert" uniforms. After the show's run, their band concert outfits became their "traditional" ones. They slowly became meet and greet characters in the late 2000's.

These versions of Clarabelle and Horace are very unique, due to their faces being made of exposed, reticulated foam. This technique is very common in the mascot costume industry. It's used in small portions for vents and material to see through. Instead of the faces being made of a rigid foam-rubber material, like Mickey and Minnie, the whole face of Clarabelle and Horace is made out of reticulated foam. Also the heads don't have short, black fur like the others. The best way to explain their structurally different heads is the following: Clarabelle and Horace weren't designed to be permanent characters. They were created for brief appearances in parades and shows. They were never designed to be meet-n-greet or long running show characters. This explain the simplicity and little attention that went to their head construction and using their band uniforms as main outfits, instead of custom ones. Though through time, they have become popular characters with guests around the world.

Clarabelle used custom shoes, created specifically for her. Another character is known for using the same style of shoes; Winnie Woodpecker from Universal Studios. You can read the entire story here.

Clarabelle's debut on "The World According to Goofy" 1992, credit

Clarabelle, Peter and Horace wearing their band uniforms 1998, video

The couple, 2011. disneyparks.disney.go.com

2016- Present: New Era Clarabelle & Horace
In 2016, a new articulated version of Clarabelle Cow debuted at "Mickey's Most Merriest Celebration" at the Magic Kingdom in Disney World. This new head of Clarabelle is based on the animated and cgi versions. Interestingly, the articulated version debuted before the standard stationary version. In November 2017, Clarablle debuted her new look with a new outfit and along side Horace. Both heads of Clarabelle and Horace are no longer made out exposed foam and now have smooth, clean faces like the rest of the rest. Claraballe and Horace lost their band uniforms and got new wardrobes.

Clarabelle's new head now has a smaller muzzle and has conjoined eyes. She has smaller horns, new ears with beige fur for the insides and a bump on her head, like Pluto. For the first time since 1973, she has a tongue again. She no longer has buck teeth and lost her makeup. Claraballe's yellow and red outfit is based on her look from the 1930's. Her skirt is similar to the one she wore in the cartoons. Since in the cartoons she didn't use a top, Claraballe wears a yellow blouse with a white collar resembling the one she used in the cartoons. Her cowbell is smaller and sliver. Instead of the traditional bow, she wears a vintage red box hat, with yellow trim and flower. Clarabelle never used a hat or bow in the cartoons, but her co-star Minnie Mouse did. Her new hat is somewhat based on Minnie's hats from that time period. She tossed her old style of shoes and replaced them with Daisy shoes, an enlarged version of Daisy shoes. She wears large, cow-size Daisy shoes.

Horace's new head is similar to Goofy's. His has smaller set of dentures and, open smile and new tongue. He was skinnier eyes and new eye focus, with eyebrows like before. His ears are pointing up now and has beige fur for the insides. He wears a brown derby hat with green ribbon. Horace now wear a long sleeve red shirt, with the sleeves rolled up and wears blue overalls. His horse collar is smaller and made out of faux leather, with a yellow satin bow tie. Horace's footwear is brown hooves with part of the pants legs rolled up. The newest addition to Horace is the inclusion of his tail. He has a tail, similar to the one on the cartoon, sticking out of his pants. There's a yellow patch with red polka-dots were the tail sticks out.

Debut of Talking Clarabelle at the Magic Kingdom, 2016. credit

Talking Clarabelle's performance at the Magic Kingdom, 2016. video link

Clarabelle Cow at Magic Kingdom, 2017. credit

Clarabelle Cow at California Adventure, 2017. credit

Clarabelle & Horace at Magic Kingdom, 2017. credit

Horace Horsecollar at Magic Kingdom, 2017. credit

Screenshot where Horace's back is visible, source

I'm completely satisfied with their new look. They now blend seamlessly with the rest of the Disney classic characters with their new wardrobe and clean cut faces. Their new design brings one major concern to me. We have witnessed this pattern of Disney redesigning their classic characters; like Mickey, Minnie, Clarabelle and Horace. Now, I'm predicting that the next classic character to get redesigned will be Goofy. The reason behind all of these character redesigns is to make the costume version match the cartoon counterpart. If we take a character like Goofy, his costume version does not match the animated version. Its safe to say that sooner or later, Goofy will be resigned. I hope they don't because I love the current Goofy and I can't picture any other type of Goofy. But, if and when Disney redesigns Goofy, would he have conjoined eyes like Clarabelle or separate eyes like Horace?

Through the Years List:

Wednesday, December 6, 2017

Donald Duck Sailor Suit

After a few payments, I was able to acquire Donald Duck's modern sailor suit. This is my most expensive set in my collection, second being Mickey's. This set included Donald's modern sailor shirt with red bow tie, hands and neck. The vintage body I purchased earlier year. The set also included Donald's hat cover, but not the actual hat piece.

This was a very interesting acquirement. One of my collecting sources contacted me and offered the set. I personally am not a big Donald Duck fan and wasn't too excited with the offer; it was a high ticket price. But I couldn't pass the opportunity to own more Disney characters pieces. All the pieces in my collection share a story and so does Donald's set. What comes to mind when looking at Donald is all the guests that this set greeted. All the autographs Donald signed wearing these gloves/hands; given that the right glove is baldly stained with pen and marker marks.

Overall this set is impressive, one of the finer ones. This also confirms one of my theories about the Donald and Daisy costumes. This set compared to Mickey's, Minnie's and Goofy's, is the largest, heaviest, bulkiest and multi-layered of  them all. Every time I hug Donald or Daisy at the parks, I can feel all the layers of clothing that make up the costume. Now owning these pieces, I can see why I feel what I feel when hugging them.

I would have rather invested the money on a Daisy set (she's my favotite), but Donald is equally as magical. This collecting journey is a journey that keeps me on my toes. I never know whats next. On several occasions people have offered me different costume pieces, but had to pass due to price or not being interested. Most recently, a collector contacted me and offered me a Tigger head. But had to decline, because the price was nearly $10,000. I'm not going broke over a Tigger head. I never meant to collect, all I wanted was Mickey gloves and everything else just followed. I'm not hungry for more pieces, but I would like to complete my Mickey, Minnie and Donald sets and eventually have Daisy's. I have a complete Goofy set, but I'm missing the head. Hopefully when a Goofy head comes my way, I'll be financially sound.

Donald in all of his glory

Donald's sailor jacket

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Donald hands and hat cover

Collection of Disney character hands

Mickey, Donald, Minnie and Goofy sets

Sunday, August 20, 2017

Minnie Mouse's Dress 1978- 2016

It comes to no surprise to everyone that Minnie Mouse is my favorite Disney parks character. Since the late 70's, Minnie has worn her iconic, red polka dot dress and has worn the same style dress since then. Her dress changed when Shanghai Disneyland opened in 2016. I'll describe the various changes that happened to her dress from this time period.

Me meeting Minnie at Epcot, 2017

Minnie's dress is so simple, is brilliant. Even though she used the same style of dress for 39 years, it has been altered over time. In 1978, Minnie debuted a new look with her new dress. The fabric used for her new dress was previously used for Practical Pig's bandanna; which debuted in 1969.

Practical Pig at Disneyland, 1974. credit

Minnie Mouse at Magic Kingdom, 1981. credit

Her dress pattern is made up of a basic bodice with puffed sleeves and a circular skirt; made up of 3 panels. The fabric used for her dress was polyester. The bodice and sleeves are lined with white cotton fabric and the skirt with polyester lining. The white trimmings are made up of white canvas fabric. The diameter of the dots are roughly 2.25 inches and 1 inch apart from each other.

Using the website Spoonflower.com, a company that allows you to print your design on fabric, I was able to understand more about the pattern on the dress. I measured carefully Minnie's dress (I happen to own a vintage Minnie dress) and created a single white dot, placed over a red background. I used Photoshop to do this. Then I uploaded the design to Spoonflower and use their software repeat the pattern on fabric. Spoonflower offers numerous fabrics for printing, but they don't have the correct polyester fabric used on Minnie's dress. I ordered samples of the pattern on two types of fabric , Basic Cotton Ultra and polyester Eco Canvas (the closest one to the original.) When compared to the original dress, Basic Cotton Ultra matches perfectly and Eco Canvas shows up a bit brighter than the original. In theory, one can use this information provided and have it printed on Spoonflower.

Someone asked me if the shade of Minnie's dress and Mickey's pants match. They don't, very close though. Mickey's pants are solid red, stretchy gabardine and Minnie's dress is printed on fabric. Minnie's dress is brighter than Mickey's pants.

The closest shade of red of Minnie's dress Spoonflower offers, color hex CC4400

The repeated pattern used for Minnie's dress, half-drop pattern

Spoonflower samples compared to Minnie's dress

In 2008, Minnie's dress was updated, to look the same as before. The bodice's neckline was made more circular, the sleeves became slightly bigger, the white trimmings are now gaberdine and the skirt became one large panel. The biggest change was made on the seam on the waist. Now is full dot is created on the middle of the waist seam. It's formed by connecting two half dots on the bottom of the bodice and the top of the skirt.

Also, the back of the dress was redesigned were the dots would either: match the flow of the pattern on the adjacent side of the zipper line, or the dots will meet on the zipper line, like on the waist. Before this update, the dots on the dresses made for Minnie did not align on the waist or back. The costume department just sewed the dresses and let the dots fall wherever they land. In Tokyo Disneyland, before the '08 change, the Minnie dresses were carefully made where one, or three dots aligned at the waist. Tokyo Disneyland's costume department is more careful and persnickety about the small details on the character's and cast member's costumes.

Comparison of the old style dress (left) and the new '08 updated dress (right)

Close up of the dot at the waist line.

Minnie at Tokyo Disneyland, late 90's.
She wears a dress were three dots meet at the waist, instead of one

Dots aligned on the zipper line, Disneyland Paris. credit

(left) Dots aligned with the polka dot pattern, Tokyo Disneyland.
(right) Minnie's new dress, designed were there's no dots on the zipper line or back skirt seam, Disneyland.

Last year, I had the opportunity to meet with another collector, who owned a modern Minnie dress. I visited him and took my dress along to compare. It was interesting seeing the difference between the two. His dress was made in 2010 and mine is vintage. Joking with the collector, I said "my dress looks like a thrift store find compared to yours." Because his dress was modern, it was higher quality and less worn than mine. He also had Minnie's bow and bloomers. He offered the dress to me, but I couldn't not afford it. Let's see if another one comes along for my collection.

New Minnie dress (left) & my vintage Minnie dress (right)

Tuesday, July 25, 2017

My Facebook Page

I have my own Facebook page: facebook.com/Pupepepets


I created this page of I can stay connected with all the people that read my blog and watch my videos. Sometimes I struggle to do that with all the different platforms; blogger, youtube, emails, ect. Now I think this way is easier for everybody, even me. I'll be streaming live videos once in a while. In those streams I'll be show casing my costume collection and puppet building. Hope everyone enjoys the page. Also, I'll still keep posting videos and content on my blog.



Wednesday, July 12, 2017

Why Disney? Kermit Re-Casting

I'm sad to hear that Steve Whitmire, performer of Kermit the frog and many others, will no longer be working with the Muppets. I don't know what upsets me the most; the reason behind his departure or the media calling it "Kermit's voice actor."

Steve & I at the Center for Puppetry Arts, 2010

In January of 2010, I had the opportunity to attend a puppetry workshop hosted by Steve Whitmire at the Center for Puppetry Arts, in Atlanta, Georgia. I was 14 years old at the time. As a young puppeteer, I was mega happy and excited. I saw him three times at the center. Once at a seminar and twice at the workshops.

I was able to meet him personally before the first workshop and it was mind blowing. I brought with me a Wembly Fraggle replica and he got excited to see my work. He grabbed the puppet and started performing as Wembly. Then we had a little chat. During the last workshop, I met his wife, Melissa Whitmire, and she was a sweetheart. She told me that I looked like a young version of her husband. She also pointed out a newspaper article about me. A few months prior to meeting Steve, I was featured in a Atlanta newspaper. The article was about me and my puppets. Later, Steve told me that he read the article when it came out, that his chauffeur gave him the newspaper.

Steve holding my Wembly Fraggle replica, 2010

Being compared to Steve, by himself and his wife was very humbling. I felt so small compered to him. What makes this experience so memorable is that I met Steve as student, not a fan. For those two, long workshops, he was my teacher. There was no time for fan boys. The entire time I've spent him, he didn't do Kermit's voice and anything like that. He was teaching me, and a few others, how to perform a puppet and how to bring it to life.

Steve joined the Muppets in 1978. He began working at "The Muppet Show." He was able to learn from pioneers in the Muppet industry, like Frank Oz, Jerry Nelson and Jim Henson himself. In 1990, shortly after Jim Henson's unsuspected death, Steve was handed the role of Kermit. Since then, he has carried the legacy of Kermit in his hands (literally.)

In Steve's statement about his departure from the Muppets, it reads that Disney was recasting Kermit since October of 2016. He did everything in his power to deal with Disney in order to remain Kermit's performer. His efforts were in vain. Disney's decisions forced him to resign and hand over the role to someone else. Matt Vogel, a puppeteer known for being Big Bird's understudy, will now be performing our green, little friend.

It just isn't fair. Why on Earth would Disney make a decision like that? It's not about Vogel becoming Kermit, it's about trying to fix something that doesn't need to be fixed. Steve has been with the Muppets for 39 years, 27 years as Kermit. If it was because he was retiring or any other purpose that would be fine. But because of unnecessary recasting? Really? Let's hope it wasn't a monetary issue.

I know that Kermit is just a puppet, but he means so much more. To me, Kermit represents art, freedom to be yourself and dreaming big. I'm sure he means the same thing, or more, to a lot of people. Steve carried the spirit of Kermit, with the lessons he learned from Jim Henson. Kermit, in a way, was an alter ego of Henson. That's what made Kermit, Kermit. Steve saw that and applied it to his performance of him. I trust that Vogel will do a good job as Kermit, knowing that Vogel himself is a Muppet fan. Imagine being a Muppet fan and someone tells you "Your Kermit's representation know." But it's unfair what has happened to Steve. It appears that all the years of hard work, sweat, and tears of Steve as Kermit mean nothing to Disney.

Thursday, June 22, 2017

Disneyland Auction 5: Shoes & Masks

Just in time for the summer, Van Eaton Galleries has produced their 5th consecutive Disneyland auction, "Walt Disney's Disneyland." Like previous auctions, this auction featured many items from Disneyland. This one focused more on items belonging to Walt Disney and his involvement with the park. I had the opportunity to visit the gallery and see some items in person. The main piece of the auction was a map of Disneyland created in 1953, used as a presentation piece for investors. The auction also includes costume pieces like Minnie Mouse shoes, Old Hag from Snow White mask and Fairy Godmother mask. Here's a link to the photo album.

I'm happy to announce that I will be bidding on some of the items! Wish me luck! I've made a video talking about the upcoming auction.

Lot 217: Disneyland presentation map from 1953

video link

Here are some pictures of the gallery, enjoy!

Lot 369: Toy Soldier head and boots (not pictured)

Lot 190: Gus & Jaq maquettes created by Bill Justice


Lot 239: Minnie Mouse shoes and bloomers (not pictured)

Lot 905: Fairy Godmother mask from Tokyo Disneyland

Lot 831: Old Hag from Snow White mask

Sunday, June 18, 2017

First Time at Disneyland!

Last Saturday I had the opportunity of visiting Disneyland! First time too! Needless to say, it was a dream come true. Disneyland is a truly magical place. I visited the park with my mother. I don't even know how to begin explaining my experience. I can start by saying that Disneyland was smaller than what I expected; at least compared to the Magic Kingdom at Disney World.

Me near Sleeping Beauty Castle

After gazing at the train station and Main Street USA, we headed to the castle. At the castle, I noticed that near the wishing well, Snow White's Evil Queen was there. I took my picture with her. Then we went to Toontown. Along the way we saw the Fairy Godmother and Peter Pan. We met Mickey and Minnie at their houses at Toontown. Meeting Mickey and Minnie at Disneyland was a big moment for me, because I was meeting the new versions of them for the first time. I was mentally ready to examine and study their new wardrobe and heads. Here's what I saw:

The heads look to be constructed the same way the previous ones. Mickey's pants appear to be the same, just with oval buttons and the black lines removed. The shoes look the same. The bow tie is a different style, a more relax look than the previous one. The gloves are still the same, but with new lines. The biggest changes I saw was the vest and jacket. The vest is now made out of cheap looking taffeta and has one large button in the middle, which is a huge eye-sore if you ask me and, in sewing terms, wrong. The vest is built the same way as before. The new jacket is made out of the same material as before, but with a different pattern. His new jacket is a simplified version of the previous one and looks cheap. The previous jacket was designed and built just like a real tuxedo jacket with tails. This new jacket looks cheap and like a jacket off Party City compared to the old one. His old jacket had a secret pocket on the inside, wonder if the one does too.

Minnie's new dress was made out off the same material as her previous one, but with new polka dot pattern. The dress' white timings, collar and waist bow were made out off the same cheap looking taffeta as Mickey's vest. I like Minnie's new look, but her head bow. That bow has to go. She looked great wearing Daisy shoes. I was able to meet Mickey and Minnie twice, once at their houses and later at Town Square. While meeting Minnie at Town Square, I held Minnie's hand to discreetly see what was the material of lines. By what I could see and feel, they where made out of felt. The old one were made out of Velcro (fuzzy side.) Overall, new Mickey and Minnie are as wonderful and magical as the previous ones, despite their new appearance.

Old vs New

Old vs New

Me holding Minnie's hand

After meeting Mickey and Minnie, I noticed that Pluto, Donald, Chip and Dale where playing "duck, duck, goose" with some of the kids present. When the game ended, it was time for them to return backstage. Mickey and Minnie were returning backstage at the same as them and as they were heading backstage I took pictures of their backs. I wanted detailed pictures to study in depth their new costumes. Details hard to catch when you have less than a minute to meet them. While Mickey was heading to the backstage door, some of the performer's blonde hair slipped out the back of the head. Not whole lot, but enough were it was noticeable (at least to me.) I love finding little imperfections in the characters like that.

Shortly after the characters went backstage, something magical happened. I was standing around Town Square and Daisy showed up. It was her time to meet-n-greet with guests. I ran towards her and hugged her. Then she grabbed my hand and started walking with me. I couldn't believe it! I had Daisy all to myself! She took me around Town Square and showed me the different locations, like the flag pole and the fire station. Then we reached her photo location, in front of the train station's stairs. I was mega, mega happy. One of my favorite characters just took me around Town Square!

Pluto, Donald, Chip and Dale playing "duck, duck, goose" with the kids

Minnie and Mickey heading backstage

Goofy at the fire station greeting guests

Daisy and I after our little stroll

I would say that Disneyland is more character friendly than Magic Kingdom at Disney World. When you enter Disneyland you see characters left and right and you can have a personal interaction with them. While at Magic Kingdom the characters don't have that freedom, their meet-n-greet system is setup like an assembly line. Here's a link to my Flickr album filled with pictures from this trip.


video link

Wednesday, May 31, 2017

I've got a Disney Secret

Is it about the Disney Collage Program? Sadly I didn't get accepted; but that's old news. A while back, someone asked me if I ever worn a Disney charterer head. The answer is no, but I held in my hands two characters heads once; Mickey and Pinocchio. Need proof?

Me holding Pinocchio's head. Photo by me, 2015

I had the opportunity when I visited Van Eaton Galleries and asked for permission. They literally said "no problem." I wrote an email telling them who I was and told them I would love the chance to examine the heads personally. When arrived at the gallery, I presented myself and they put both heads in my hands. For reasons listed below, I don't have pictures of me holding the Mickey head, but my father was able to sneak a picture of me holding Pinocchio's. This experience helped me understand more about the construction and what the performer has to go through in order to wear one of these large heads.

After visiting the gallery, I took down notes about the Mickey head. Here are the notes from February 26, 2015:

"When I saw it;
The head was smaller in person. Looks big and huge in pictures, but it's fairly small. The face was painted. It was probably painted by hand because I saw the brush strokes, specially around the eyebrows. The face was beige with cheeks and nose slightly pink. The ears are oval, not slightly oval, oval. I thought the ears looked that way because if the angle, but no, they're oval. The paint started to chip in some areas of the face. The fur looks shaggy and the fur inside the ear is extremely short fur, like a towel.

What I felt:
The head was, again, small. The head hole to put on the head was small and I wasn't going to dare try it on. The head only fits a small performer, with a small head. The head was heavy, the face was made out of molded rubber and the rest was hard plastic, even the ears. The ears makes the head back heavy. I placed Mickey's head on a counter and the the head started to lean backwards. The helmet was molded into the inside of the head. The manufacturing label was glued on the left side of the helmet. The rubber face was attached to the plastic head with small screws [rivets] and glue. Mickey's head had extra fur on the back of the head to cover the performer's neck. The nose was naturally bouncy. The eyes are curved one-way lenses, the outside was painted white and glued to the inside of the head. The mesh inside the mouth was missing. The performer can easily see through the eyes and mouth. By what I could tell, when the performer wears the head, he/she has about 2 inches between Mickey's face and their face. Fur is still soft and shaggy to the touch. The fur started to detach around the head hole.

 Overall Mickey's head was in great conditions. If I owned it, I'll probably have it on display and hardly touch it or wear it. Mickey's face looks fragile. When I was handling Mickey's head, the manager of the gallery did not want any pictures or video taken because of Disney. Disney is on their backs because they're selling a genuine Mickey head and has forbidden them from taking pics or videos not involving the auction. Hopefully Disney won't get a hold of this head."


Paint starting to wear off around the nose and cheeks. Photo by me, 2015

Extra neck fur. Photo by me, 2015

Looking carefully, you can see brush strokes. Photo by me, 2015

Mickey's inner ear fur. Photo by me, 2015

Unfortunately, I didn't write any notes for Pinocchio, but here's what I remember:
The head was much lighter than Mickey's. The exterior was in bad conditions, due to the way it was stored prier to auction. It had a hand written "#3" instead of a manufacturing label on the inside. Pinocchio had a slit on the back of the head. The split on the back was intentionally built in, not accidental. This split is for easy access when putting or removing the head. The hat was attached to the head with rivets and the feather was made out of felt and painted red. The eyes and mouth was painted metal screens, like a wire strainer.


Eyes and mouth are painted metal screens. Photo by me, 2015

The slip opening on Pinocchio's back. Photo by me, 2015

The painted felt hat feather, attached with rivets. Photo by me, 2015

Around the time of this auction, they were rumors going about stating that Disney, or a division of Disney, would buy both heads and destroy them. Because they don't want anyone owing these costume pieces and when a costume piece goes out of commission, it gets destroyed and thrown away. I've herd from a friend that a collector bought the Mickey head. That's a relief. Still unaware of Pinocchio's head.

Another theory was that Disney bought the head to keep it in their archives. I noticed later that year in D23, the Disney Archives displayed items that were originally sold at the auction. Which means the archives have multiples or, more likely, they purchased some items auctioned, like Betty Taylor's Golden Horseshoe dresses.

This year, Van Eaton Galleries will host two Disneyland auctions; one in the summer and the other in the fall. I have plans to visit the summer one. Let's see what happens.